Part 4 S3X addict mom pick’s up guys at hotel bars for one night stands when she travels out of town
Hello everyone, please don’t forget to like and subscribe, please support the channel on Patreon for exclusive access to content before everyone else, the link to my Patreon is on the description below. Today we have Part 4 of a Cheaters and Simps story with some reader comments. without further ado, let’s get into it.
m not really doing very well right now. Had a new D-Day which left me despondent and overwhelmed by sadness. It was supposed to be Wayward Wife s opportunity to tell a coherent and authentic story without questioning or anger, in a safe place. I sat quiet, never interrupted, letting her know that no decisions would be immediately made. Just a chance for us both to know and trust me with the information so I could trust your kind of thing. There were no new revelations. I suppose I’m saddened because of the rather pathetic attempt she made at full disclosure. Wayward Wife claims I “want” more, and she’s forced to “make up things” to satisfy me. Truth is Wayward Wife put in very little effort, haphazard, incomplete, and dwelled on things she didn’t do, leaving out entire persons(who), what, when, where, and how. Entire types of betrayal were left out. How can someone be sorry for something they don’t mention? I withheld knowledge of some activity and of course Wayward Wife tailored answers to what I’d disclosed. I know that technique is an old and tired trick that unrepentant cheaters use. Her attitude was poor, immediately with the “I know it’s never going to be enough”, “you’re never going to get over it”, “I’m always the bad person and nothing I do will ever satisfy you.”, etc., I suppose I’m grieving; it feels like grief.
Reader Comment: This ends when you end it, not before.
Original Poster: I hear you; I understand. I do feel more empowered every day. I’m doing individual counseling. I’m taking care of myself physically, working out every day, eating, sleeping, etc. I’m back to 100% at work. I’m talking to friends every day and I’m getting together with friends regularly. I’m with my family often.
My Wayward Wife is doing individual counseling. We’re to start marriage counseling and I’ll give that a bit of time to see if my Wayward Wife will get it with the help of a counselor. Though I’m nostalgic about the marriage and the wife I once knew, I’m not deluded. I’m pessimistic that more time will pay dividends. I’m not looking to her for truth or empathy right now, both seem out of her reach. I am looking to see if she does the work, but again, I’m not optimistic.
Thanks for the support after this last D-Day, it was a sh*tshow. At this point, I’m a little comically amazed, like seeing a person fall off a curb because they’re walking while on their phone. It’s terrible that they hurt themselves, but also there is some dark humor. To just witness her low effort and seemingly unnecessary lies has left me with a certain cynical humor. It’s not ha ha funny, more like, manic Joker laugh kinda funny. Not sure I’m making sense; I’ll end it here. Thank you for your continued support for the “worst patient ever”.
Reader Comment: So, if my reading is correct, I would ask, ‘why?’ are you doing all that? Are you still hoping that she will snap out of it, give you complete truth, and you can Reconcile with her? Another possibility is, you are caught up in some morbid fascination of seeing your Wayward Wife squirm, and reveling in the discomfort she is facing. If that is the case, you are fighting against an ideal/fantasy.
Original Poster: You’ve given me a bit to unpack here. Yes, I’d say I am still hoping that with therapy she’ll get it. She says little things, opens up on occasion with some introspection, truth, and self-awareness. But talking about anything related to the affair and she goes into defense and lie mode. Hell, talking about my feelings (which are based in her actions) puts her in the same mode. There is no way around it, she is not really in shape to do reconciliation. She says she is choosing reconciliation, but what she has chosen is: “If my husband will never mention my actions, forgive me and trust everything I say, then I can stay in the marriage”. She clearly wants to rug sweep and move on. But then I get little signs that she could find the way. Is she just trying to feed me crumbs to keep it all together while she really decides what to do? It’s a possibility that I don’t rule out.
I am not reveling in her discomfort. Her failure to get it actually breaks my heart. I do have moments of “gallows humor” over it. Not over the affair actions, but the post affair actions is its own tragedy.
Yes, I’m still fighting against the idealized version of my wife. No doubt. 100%. There are hundreds of thousands of interactions over the years, brave, selfless, and beautiful sacrifices she’s made for others. There is friendship, time spent laughing, loving, and paling around like teenagers. But it’s now like one of those cheap 80’s double image posters, where depending on the angle it’s a different picture. Looking from different angles I can see either picture.
The idealized version of my wife and my life have me wanting to exhaust every effort and take any pain to know I didn’t give up too soon. I have a goal line of when enough is enough. It used to be fuzzy – “gather information” and “watch what she actually does and not what she says”. I’ve done that and now I’m letting counseling play out and if she still doesn’t get it then I know it’s time.
Reader Comment: I think you’ve been wise to spend this time gathering your resources rather than lashing out with a quick decision.
Original Poster: Thank you. I do think there is merit in taking a tougher line, and I worry that I’ve sabotaged a chance at Reconciliation by not drawing a hard line of expectations and separating immediately. Wayward Wife attitude is rug sweep. That’s her choice, but I get choices myself when I’m ready. And I will not be choosing a rug sweep Reconciliation.
Reader Comment: What I meant is; YOU are fighting against HER ideal/fantasy world of being single; being able to do what she like with who she likes, however way she likes it.
Original Poster: I see, and I agree. Last night and this morning I were obsessing/hurting over one particular aspect of exactly this. It took some real work to redirect my thoughts. I’m not optimistic that Wayward Wife can become self-aware enough to address her selfish behavior. She can say she is sorry often, but she is unable to say what she’s sorry about or address directly her decisions and selfish desire to have both a single life and me. That is unacceptable that she can’t honestly communicate directly on that issue and apologize for her selfishness directly and without excuses.
I saw someone else’s Divorce letter and it inspired me to write my own. I did, several pages long. Then I realized the letter addressed how she was failing me in Reconciliation, making it not a Divorce letter, but a request for Reconciliation work. Then I paired it down, finally arriving at “ “You have forced Divorce and its happening, here are the next steps.”. Then I realized I didn’t need a Divorce letter; I just needed to prep and tell her.
The fact is I’m not there yet. But I can see it from where I’m at. Not a strategic Divorce to force her to get it, but a real delivery of the fact I am D’ing her. The only real decision I’ve made is to reconcile every chance and be a “textbook” Reconcile spouse. A hardline as a tactic would have increased chance of Reconcile, but that ship has sailed with Marriage counseling. The path is: Wayward Wife has an opportunity to Reconciliation with Marriage counselor’s help and my best efforts. How long I give this stage I don’t know, but a few weeks in m counseling will give me an idea.
Reader Comment: I was cracking up reading this, not because I’m laughing at you, but because I did almost precisely the same thing. A long, long letter. Then pared that letter down. Then threw that letter away and just said “I want a divorce.”
Original Poster: This was really nice to hear, I felt a little silly after putting in all the effort only to realize it didn’t make sense. If I’m at D an extended letter is beside the point.
Reader Comment: The thing is: to recover, the Betrayed spouse has to learn that love is not enough.
Original Poster: This has been a hard learned lesson. Despite hearing this early, I didn’t actually accept it until my Wayward Wife put me through a living hell. Then the light came on, OHHHHH, I do love her, but I must have this other stuff.
Reader Comment: One thing I thought I had to avoid at virtually all cost was manipulating my Wife into Reconciliation. For Reconciliation to work, I thought she had to choose it freely.
Original Poster: This has been essential to me. Sometimes my Wayward Wife does things that need to be done, but her attitude is so poor and her resistance to it so strong, that even after she does it I find it hard to give her credit as it being positive. One of the things I am going to need is transparency. It’s easy to find typical transparency guidelines for recovering couples. I’ve given them to her. She’s made no effort and so I’ve made no demands. I’ll put it out there during marriage counselor again, but if its not freely and enthusiastically given, then I don’t care if it happens. We’ll end in Divorce.
I would like to say Wayward Wife has done some things well. She immediately cut things off with the long running affair partner. I don’t believe there has been contact, but I’ll be doing some things to check if R starts actually happening. Otherwise, it’s beside the point and a waste of my efforts. Numb today. marriage counseling just started, and I have my concerns. It seems like marriage counseling is going in the direction of me understanding my Wayward Wife without my Wayward Wife ever having to be accountable for continued or past lies. I’m letting it play out, it’s not too painful at this point. My hardline conclusion is that if Wayward Wife won’t speak truth about her past actions, then she is not capable of speaking truth in the future. That seems like the start of trust building and so that part has not started.
For myself, I’m confident now I can forgive her. Really, I can see that path and I believe in forgiveness for personal and spiritual reasons. Regardless of Reconciliation outcome forgiveness is an absolute outcome. I’m confident I can accept her past actions as the failure of values and poor choices that they were, including the disrespect of me, the STD risk she placed me in, and the various ways I was lied to and used. I can accept it all as human failing and selfishness. Triggers, dwelling, pain, sorrow, all of that I can see myself getting a handle on and I improve every day. I can turn that open wound into a scar, with Wayward Wife in successful Reconciliation or on my own. So for me, I see a path in Reconciliation that could lead to a restored marriage.
For Wayward Wife, I see she’s gained empathy and can speak to me in ways that are empathetic. No anger, very little defensiveness. She’s doing intensive individual counseling and I see her genuinely doing the work to understand why she did what she did. I see genuine remorse in words and actions. But I’ve kept back more than a few facts, so I can also see her lying herself into a corner. She is steadfast in the “and that’s all” as far as her sloppy Ddays, with an accompanying “I’ll talk about it (Wayward Wife s construct of lies) as much as you need dear husband. Also, no seeming remorse for the lying post Dday, that’s all my fault for not being a safe place to tell the truth. There are choices besides lies when one is not feeling safe.
My plan is to participate in good faith in marriage counseling and see if it does go to, and I quote, “Husband should accept Wayward Wife’s package of lies and move on”. Or, if Wayward Wife ‘s individual counseling leads her to a place of complete honesty with herself and me. There are indications this could be the case. I don’t care anymore about the details. What I care about is seeing if Wayward Wife is capable of telling a truthful story about her actions, that is the only thing that can lead me to feeling safe with her. I’m not even sure I want another official “Dday”, that is beside the point right now. I have patience, but I also like to get things done. In no case will I accept living my life in a house of lies.
Reader Comment: If you’re unhappy with what the marriage counseling is doing, confront. Ask for what you want. Describe what you perceive and experience.
Original Poster: It may be self-evident, but if you were in my shoes, what specifically would you ask the counselor to figure out their philosophy, and whether they will take this into rug sweeping and blame shifting I’d rather spare myself, if this is what’s about to happen.
Update: The marriage counseling is a grief and trauma specialist. Wayward Wife and I have been doing Individual counseling with them. After a few Individual counseling, I decided to try marriage counseling with her on a trial basis.
So, the first weeks were to be spent working on communication. Okay, sound enough way to start. But in practice I feel abused and attacked. Two examples from last session:
marriage counselor to each of us: Before recently, how would you describe your M and what problems do you feel you had?
Wayward Wife: I felt like I couldn’t always voice what I wanted because I didn’t feel equal.
marriage counselor to Me: And how do you feel about what she said?
Me: I’m sorry she felt unequal and didn’t feel like she could voice what she wanted. But, I don’t understand, what examples does she have of how she didn’t get what she wanted and what did I do to make her feel unequal?
marriage counselor to Wayward Wife: How does that make you feel?
Wayward Wife: Intimidated. Like he didn’t hear me. I don’t have examples; it was a feeling.
marriage counselor to Me: Wayward Wife is trying to tell you how she feels. People don’t always have examples, what’s important is that we recognize how each other feels.
Me: I recognized how she felt, but how is that useful to anyone if there is no example? And also, now she’s added that I’m intimidating her. How am I intimidating her?
marriage counselor to Wayward Wife: Why do you feel intimidated?
Wayward Wife: It’s the questioning, I have to answer how he wants me to answer.
marriage counselor to Me: Do you see how people don’t think the same? It’s important to understand how she feels and respond with how you feel. How do you feel?
Me to marriage counselor: I feel attacked and confused. I can’t seem to ask or answer anything correctly. (in circles we go for a while about answering with feelings)
Other example: During talking I say my wife must be harboring resentment if she is feeling intimidated and is often not getting what she wants.
marriage counselor to Me: We don’t know what people are feeling and people don’t usually respond well to being told how the feel.
Me: I understand. That should have been a question. Does Wayward Wife feel resentment because she did not get what she wanted? (Even though I have no examples of her not getting what she wanted as of yet)
marriage counselor to Me: We are trying to focus on real feelings, not what we believe other people are feeling.
Me to marriage counselor: How do I know what she’s feeling if I don’t ask?
marriage counselor to Me: We listen, there is a speaker and a listener in a conversation.
(Round in circles with me trying to figure out how asking a question about how someone feels isn’t correct communication).
Then four more times in the same session the marriage counseling brings up my error of stating how Wayward Wife felt as an example of how not to communicate. At end of session, marriage counselor wrapped up like we had great progress, Wayward Wife said things went well, I told them both I didn’t appreciate being attacked and made out to be the bad person for an hour. marriage counsellor apologized that I felt that way and asked that I understand we’re working on communication skills and it’s going to be hard for both of us. That we’re working toward communicating so we can work on marital issues.
Remarkably, post session, my Wayward Wife had sympathy for me on how it went. Her recognition was the only positive. But in-session Wayward Wife went with this flow of feelings, absent of any description is somehow central. I know how I feel and exactly why I feel that way and will cite examples all day. I still don’t freaking get it. Not all feelings are valid. If an arsonist burns down a house and then claims he’s feeling abused by the police, but then can’t site an example of the abuse, how is it supposed to be taken seriously? Is this a Venus vs Mars type thing, how women view feelings vs men?
I made a list, And yes, other than being physically present, there is only one person doing Reconcile. The word I keep coming back to is “proactive”. And as I look at opportunities she’s had, some of those are very situationally specific, and once they pass they never come back. Wayward Wife’s opportunities at being a proactive participant are vanishing. And as one comment also said, “If you want to reconcile, then better flip the script and soon.”. This isn’t hyperbole, I can actually see the opportunity for Reconciliation narrowing to nothing. Someone said Reconciliation is a gift. I’ve offered that gift and in return I get halfhearted participation in Reconciliation and the “When will it ever be enough!”
Reader Comment: ‘Do you believe Affair is the result of Marriage issues or personal issues within the wayward spouse?’
Original Poster: One of the reasons I felt okay about the marriage counseling was the counselor said the affair was not my fault, I did nothing to cause it, and it wasn’t the fault of the marriage. But in actual marriage counseling, I’m not seeing this play out, there appears to be a “all feelings are valid” thing happening. The “Socks” example could be almost word for word, except we haven’t actually dealt with the Affair.
Reader Comment: You thought it was the best of marriages. Is it probable that your conception and your wife’s conception of the marriage are so far apart she needed to cheat, or is it more probable she just wanted to cheat?
Original Poster: She was selfish, and she wanted to have a marriage she enjoyed and all the benefits of cheating. She did not “come forward” as is a new narrative she’s slowly injecting. She was called out, lied, lied, was cornered, did partial confessions, was presented with facts, and more partial confessions. She keeps stating she wants the marriage like it was and talks glowingly of me and the M – as long as we’re not talking about the nuclear hot topic of A, then she’s a different woman.
Reader Comment: I’m still with my wife. I would like to say because we have reconciled but mainly because she kept hiding the truth of the affairs. I lost nearly 30 lbs. after I found out. I just didn’t feel like eating. Sadly, I’ve put it all back on. Like your wife, I really love how she just wants to focus on the future. Saying, “I don’t think about the past, why can’t you just move forward too?” I keep telling her because I keep getting dragged back by all the lies and lack of truth, and “…for those who don’t learn anything from the past they are bound to repeat it.” She just wants me to forget and move on. She doesn’t get it.
Original Poster: We’re all in so much pain, so sorry to hear about not just what has been done to you, but the abuse you’re still suffering. I hope you don’t mind me saying, but I read you and others and see this “canary in the coal mine”. Where I see where you’ve ended up and see myself suffering the same fate. My Wayward Wife is great if we’re talking and working on “forward” but “backward (my pain)” sends us spiraling out of control. To me this is just more selfishness on her part. I don’t need her to crawl through glass, I don’t need restitution (impossible), what I need is caring and focus on me. If the wayward spouse’s aren’t capable of that, then why do we bother? It really means they haven’t changed.
Reader Comment: Did she also believe she was in the best of marriages?
Original Poster: That’s what she says over and over. She says she can’t believe she threw something so good away. If we’re not talking directly about her choices, then she’s all about saying how much the M meant to her and how much I mean to her and how happy she was. But I can’t actually buy it all. First, Wayward Wife has been and still is a liar (still is a liar being most relevant), so how do I know what she actually feels and wants? Secondly, she says and does things which show a “never satisfied” streak. So no matter how wild, long, and good our sex is, there is still the, “what next?”. No matter how many vacations we go on, there is always, “where next?”. No matter how good a time we have out there is always, “when next?”. I can’t articulate this, but suffice it say I don’t feel like we can ever just have a great time and bask in that. I’m not saying we don’t keep doing things, but there is something about the “kicks get harder to get”, that she seems to lean into. Can a person that thinks there is always a bigger kick to get really believe they are in the “best marriage”? I’m suspecting not.
Reader Comment: Neither you nor the marriage counseling can take anything she has to say at face value.
Original Poster: Yep. the marriage counselor seems to be taking feelings as facts.
Reader Comment: Does she really have it in her? Do you?
Original Poster: No, I don’t believe so, I’ve seen no actual sign she has “it” in her. It being your various questions from both your related posts. I really do, as long as I get certain actions from her. I can see that path, not just want it, but I know myself, I can see it and heal.
Reader Comment: the basic conflict of interest of a marriage counseling is that she is there to cure you but does not get paid if she does.
Original Poster: Agree, others have also stated the philosophical approach of affair recovery vs marriage counseling. My wife did indeed take a wrecking ball to our Marriage and me. marriage counselor seems to want to restore Marriage without dealing with the Affair. Which I can see in the way my Wayward Wife has liked the sessions. It’s great for a cheater: deal with all sorts of M stuff where both spouses can be found to be in error and make improvements and compromises, but not the Affair and the damage the Affair has caused, where the wayward spouse has to be proactive and do work. This is how I’m seeing it now.
The marriage counseling is an individual counseling for both Wayward Wife and me, they say they can do more and move quicker that way. I was going to take my next individual session, and do my same routine of using the Individual Counselor is what I’ve been using/correct?) as a dumping ground for my pain, and for the things I don’t see Wayward Wife doing. Basically, I’ve been asked by marriage counselor to be patient, so I’m to push it all down into my belly until it kills me. So my individual sessions turned into this one opportunity each week to let the pain out a little. Not this next time. I’m using this and questions I’ve seen on here to be posed to marriage counseling (I meant to do this earlier but had signs things would be okay). I’m going to see exactly what this marriage counseling’s plan is, if it’s not in keeping with healing me, Wayward Wife accountability, etc., then it’s not what I need and is useless to me. I’m out if it’s general marriage counseling and not affair recovery work that actually puts my trauma recovery as a priority.
Reader Comment: I read your brief history. Your wife checks the boxes for being a sex addict. Is her individual counselor a CSAT? Does your marriage counseling know anything about SA(sex Addict)?
Original Poster: Her IC(individual counselor) gave her a sex addiction battery of questions. I researched SA(sex Addict) myself. My Wayward Wife has researched it. A few years ago (menopause) Wayward Wife ‘s SA(sexual appetite) went from high to explosive. I thought it was fun and enjoyed the new energy.
To be frank, she meets the activities of an SA(sex addict), but not the emotional cycles I keep reading about. She took high risk with no concern. Understood it would lead to divorce if found out. She had no remorse or regret, Generally felt good and enjoyed her sexual activities. She enjoyed the attention, and the affirmation men gave her during all of it. Was not concerned about STDs, No highs, lows, or shame periods. No build up to the next s(sexual) activity. Having heard her describe her emotional state, it was basically: “I enjoyed p(porn), s(sex), and emotional affair like a “single person” I’m not putting any words in her mouth or imagining, all of the above is direct from Wayward Wife.
I did read that SA(sex addition) can be learned. The brain is a learning machine, we decide what to teach it. If we feed it s(sex) for escapism, s(sex) for affirmation, risky (forbidden) S(sexual) behavior and the relating positive hormones, then we train the body to want it. If she is SA(sex addition), I believe it started as simple selfishness and she trained herself into SA(sex addition). Perhaps that’s overly critical, but that’s my best guess given the information I have.
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