Part 5 S3X addict mom pick’s up guys at hotel bars for one night stands when she travels out of town


Hello everyone, please don’t forget to like and subscribe, please support the channel on Patreon for exclusive access to content before everyone else, the link to my Patreon is on the description below. Today we have Part 5 of a Cheaters and Simps story with some reader comments. without further ado, let’s get into it.

Today was a big day, I decided to take my needs to written form, very short, and with very common needs/boundaries: empathy, transparency, etc., It went badly. I realized my Wayward Wife is a counter puncher. Wayward Wife does not need to actually be attacked, but if she feels attacked, if it’s about the affair, my needs, my issues, or is uncomfortable, she will attack and turn it about me. I tested this a few times with unimportant but touchy topics. She attacked and turned it about me. Example would be, Me. “You hurt me with X words.”. Wayward Wife “You hurt me with Y words!”. Me, “Okay, acknowledge Y.”. We talk about Y until topic is exhausted, then I go, “Now, about X words that hurt me.”. Wayward Wife, “You hurt me with Z words!”

It was exhausting for me when I saw the circle, so I point out this circle of counter punch. Anyone care to guess Wayward Wife response? Only wrong answers accepted.

Wayward Wife said today she saw an attorney. Wayward Wife said she wishes she had a Boyfriend to move in with. Wayward Wife said she didn’t want me at her families Christmas party. Understatement: I’m sensing she’s not ready to crawl through glass for me.

The list of needs was “accepted” bitterly as being all about me and nothing about her, that I was a jailer, and she’d done it all anyway. I specifically said I also wanted to be attentive to her needs, she said she didn’t have a list, it was unreasonable that I “make” her think like me. Apparently lists of personal needs are forced conformity.

marriage counseling, Reconciliation, just doesn’t seem in the cards for me. The doors are slamming shut and I’m seeing only one path left to me.

So the personal result from my Wayward Wife s latest statements and initial poor receipt of the wish list of needs was my hopelessness. Which meant Divorce was brought up by me as the only thing left for me to do. When Divorce was brought up I was convinced, truly convinced, that was the only path left. Also, she was way ahead of me on figuring out this path. What was I left to work with? There was one person in Reconciliation. So, I conveyed as much. At one point she said, “You’re right, it’s time, let’s talk about Divorce.” I responded, “Nothing to talk about, Divorce is a decision, not a conversation. Reconciliation has been rejected by you, so Divorce is what’s left. It’s not a talk.” Wayward Wife ‘s reaction was the same as when she’d been caught with damning information: total shock. Then came her depression. Then Wayward Wife came back telling me how reasonable a list I provided and how she doesn’t want to do marriage counseling that doesn’t deal with Affair’s effect on me and her accountability.

Not sure if this is the often referred to HopeIum or if its a genuine turn. I haven’t been provided anything to be genuinely hopeful about. I can look back at the thread and all those that suggested a REAL 180 and Divorce, and those provided the best path to accountability (or not, but resolution). I suppose I should wait to see if this is real or a ploy for something else. I’m suspicious, but I WANT to be hopeful.

Reader Comment: There isn’t anything left here, and help should be given to other posters that are willing to take the wisdom from posters.

Original Poster: Failure to take good advice is not the same as a failure to respect the advice. I indeed may be a lost cause, I don’t refute my solo efforts at Reconciliation, nor my own failed resolve. I have struggled in vain. The choice to struggle at in ill-advised Reconciliation, despite good advice, and good information pointing to the futility is 100% on me, and I’d ask it not be taken by anyone as my lack of respect (or even belief that the advice was not correct – I believe much of the advice has been sound). I’ve taken some time with my Wayward Wife ‘s latest words. I’ve read the advice in my thread from the beginning (was up at 4:00 am). Searched my own heart and mind to figure out what I can do now. I’m committing myself to do the actual hard 180. I did what I was calling a soft 180, cherry picking. Someone said something to the effect that ‘all the soft 180 was doing was making me strong enough to take more abuse.’ Whoever said it, it sunk in now.

I need to have a change of mindset; my responses need to be more like those from people who have done the legit 180. I don’t actually know where this will lead. But all I’ve done so far is get myself put together so I could withstand more suffering. I’m like a tortured prisoner who exercises, eats well, administers my own bandages, and mentally prepares for the next beating. There is a pattern.

So, it may not sound like much of a decision, but it feels right to me. The soft 180 did have some benefits, I put myself back together using some of the tools. So, I’m taking a leap of faith that not cherry picking, hard 180, that I might get better clarity.

Reader Comment: It’s only for YOU. For you to find your balance, to stop the abuse, to start putting your next steps together. Then it’s for moving forward.

Original Poster: The move from soft to real 180 was not a very long trip for me. One of the important take away for me was that staying and doing real 180 is temporary stage. Staying can’t be long term. The directional mind switch has been revealing to me but has brought sadness. I’m not happy, I feel like I’m grieving, but when Wayward Wife speaks, I’m not tortured. Her words are air. This is actually better than my pretend okay soft 180 that was letting myself be daily abused. Merry Christmas everyone, wishing you all love and joy through the season.

Thanks everyone for your continued thoughts and well wishes. My true 180 was huge for me. First, it gave me focus away from Wayward Wife and thoughts of Reconciliation, it let me build my self-esteem, body, and mind in amazing ways. I’m in the best physical shape in decades. My work returned to 100%. And I had a real, if shallow, acceptance that Divorce was a realistic possibility that I needed to prepare myself.

My Wayward Wife took my behavior as an insult, then it appeared she crumbled into despair, then she came to me on several occasions wanting to do “everything I asked”. I started feeling guilty and cruel for not reaching her halfway. I prayed and found guidance and did open up to her again. Without asking she found a legit good counselor that even the most pessimistic divorce advocate would find near perfect in his approach. Accountability, transparency, no blame shifting, empathy building, etc.

Wayward Wife answers all questions I have, is rarely defensive (when she is we just postpone for later), she is accountable for her whereabouts, all her accounts & passwords, she is remorseful, and most of all she is sincerely empathetic to me. It all feels fragile some days, we had a setback with her past making a real and sudden impact in our lives.

We are Christians, prayer, devotion, fellowship, church, and God’s hand in our lives have been essential. We are making our marriage anew with a Christ centered biblically informed marriage.

I have no idea of the outcome, some days I still fall into sadness over the breadth and depth of her betrayals and deceptions. The selfishness with which she acted during the affairs – and cruelty after disclosure, often hangs over me like a dark cloud. But then the sky parts and we do good work on the Marriage, she is accountable, and takes full responsibility. She blames me for nothing.

Forgiveness will not be a challenge, it really isn’t. It’s not my nature to demand repayment for debts I forgive. Trust is an obstacle that some days feels impossible. Day at a time on that. I can’t fault her for any behavior right now and I feel positive about Reconciliation. There are obviously weeks and weeks of details, but that is where I am.

Update: Primary sticking point in marriage counseling. wayward wife is really angry at me, and this is not resolved as marriage counselor tells her my behavior was normal so she doesn’t want to address her anger anymore. For me, wayward wife doesn’t appear to have legit empathy. Signs of failed empathy:

– Extreme anger towards me.

– Frustration at any mention of Affair, turning to anger towards me.

– Short “good conversations” that devolve to her citing a wrong she felt (some justified) and asserting some equivalency, “you weren’t perfect, I wasn’t perfect, so enough and lets move-on” On this note, I’m always open to talking about my failings. And I believe I do so in the way I’d like to be spoken to – calmly and with my ownership of my actions. Also, I give credit to her feelings and likewise, want credit to my feelings even if they can’t 100% be explained. Not apology, not a solution, just acknowledgement. I don’t want to talk about her issues with me as a counter that shuts down working through my concerns and feelings. This seems tactical and not authentic.

– During marriage counseling I find out she gave us a venereal disease. I did not share with marriage counselor to keep wayward wife from being embarrassed. She cried, apologized, and then predictably grew angry when I had questions. My main source of questioning was she rejected the idea that her supposed last partner (the EA sex partner) could not be responsible. Given her time frames for testing she said she did after other unprotected encounters, it pointed to him. So, either, her timeline was significantly flawed or she had feelings and making a knee jerk protection of EA partner. Her point is that I just want to keep her down, “beat her up”, and will never forgive her.

Now we’re post marriage counseling and just working on our own. She is seeing an individual counselor, which is good by me as I don’t even think I have a say in that and if I did would endorse it. However, she knew I didn’t know and kept it secret, which just raises all the issues in me of a continued life of living lies – even if the secret is something I don’t actually care about. Her claim is she told me months ago, but all the coming and going, and not a single mention and I’d made comments about how I thought individual counseling would be good – with no comment back. It only came out when she was angry and blurted out, she is now strong thanks to individual counseling and can fight back. Side note, also said she has an attorney, but then recanted.

It’s like okay, I never thought she didn’t fight back, and I haven’t raised my voice in anger since the first few months. Meanwhile, I never physically touched her nor used my presence in a threatening manner. Just last week she hit me with a glass picture frame, embedding glass in my arm that I raised to protect my face. Before this she grabbed my head, pulled my hair, yelled and spit in my face. In the past arguments she’s yelled, shoved, slapped me, and personally attacked me in every way a spouse could attack a partner. When I raise this, she says, “I called her a slut once, so let’s move-on” or the one that is a really poor equivalency, she says that my abuse was worse. The abuse she is referring to is the yelling and questioning in the weeks after D Day. I do consider that abuse, but abuse on a spectrum. Yelling is abusive, nobody should do it. We’re not perfect. I own it and give her an apology and true remorse. Meaning, I corrected my own attitude and behavior, so I don’t yell and don’t grill her. I am disappointed in myself and wish I could go back with my current raised awareness. And I’m willing to speak of it calmly anytime she wants. However, I consider striking someone as hard as they can with a glass frame and cutting them is much worse, not to mention grabbing, shoving, slapping, and another 6 months of yelling anger. But….my behavior was worse?

I haven’t even tried to play a game of worse. We are all imperfect. We are each responsible for ourselves, I can’t make you yell, you can’t make me yell. We choose our actions. It’s her actions and not repeating them that I care about. Understanding motives and decision processes, having empathy for my pain – not empathy for the state of the marriage, but the pain she caused me with her deceptions. I’d feel safer if she were self-aware enough to be responsible for her anger, for her infidelity, for her deceptions. I don’t need her to tell me she is an awful person.

Current phase is we had a breakthrough where her last violence caused her to exhibit remorsefulness and question her own anger. She still implies my actions (weeks of grilling and yelling around D Day) are worse than both her infidelity and her violence. She is also loving, talks about putting me 1st, has a reasonable understanding and newfound ability to discuss her whys without anger. She is acting shocked that I feel hurt, saying she thought all my reactions were based on pride. On one hand, her recognizing I’m hurt is a breakthrough, on the other hand all these many months later and she apparently never thought I was hurt makes me question many things about her.

I have forgiven her and don’t expect any payment from the affair, she doesn’t need to abuse herself, nor report everything she does at every moment, nor do I want an unequal marriage. She should have just as much say in our future as if there was no A. I consider this forgiveness, to not harbor resentment over the affair. But I don’t trust her and that to me is the next issue. If we Divorce, I’m in good shape, I’ve forgiven and can move on, then the trust issue goes away. If we R, she has to work with me and be willing to address trust and my safety in meaningful ways. She says this is me not forgiving, but I don’t think truth, or the literature supports her conflation of forgiveness and trust.

I know this isn’t an uplifting report and many will say run. I can say that I am actually mentally strong enough to ask for Divorce if I want it. Not just ask for it but initiate it. I’m not at that point. I’m interested in seeing where this latest break through takes us. I’m prepared for it taking us into more violence from her, but also hopeful she’ll continue embracing her better self. Also, ready if she initiates D, so please don’t worry about me for that.

Reader Comment: Did I read correctly that she kept being in individual counseling a secret? I have to ask why she would conceal this.

Original Poster: Like most things, this is contested. She claims she told me in Nov. But we were seeing the same individual counseling/ marriage counseling, doing individual and marriage counseling around and after that time frame with a different counselor. I didn’t like that marriage counselor for the many reasons. I remember wayward wife saying she saw this other counselor some 6 months ago, but then not one more word since. Memory is vague, but I thought she had switched to our shared counselor. I wouldn’t even accuse her of outright lying. Regardless, she agrees that she never mentioned it again. She claims its coincidence that it never came up again and that I’m trying to control her. Not sure how both those things can be true at the same time. So, to me this is deceptive or at least secretive. in my opinion, wayward wife left me with the impression she wasn’t in any marriage counseling.

In normal circumstances this could be an oversight, but given the history, I believe it speaks to her unwillingness to place transparency as a high value. She had to willfully lie by omission to make her appointments in private without my knowing. Again, I’m not concerned with what type of counseling she’s doing. If its to get herself ready for Divorce, okay, that’s her choice. It just speaks to her unfitness as an Reconciliation partner that she isn’t actively making every attempt to be transparent. This doesn’t seem that hard as I never asked her to share her marriage counseling session discussion.

There is some part of me that’s becoming convinced that she just likes being secretive. Not just private, but actively having her secrets. Again, had there not been the massive betrayal, lies, and sexual misconduct I wouldn’t be that concerned with transparency. But now, I’d like to see transparency for a while to build trust. I don’t think I’m going to get it and I also think I’m past arguing for anything I want.

This recent small break through has me engaged in trying, but each one of these instances is making me like her less.

Reader Comment: Ya think? Sorry for the snark, but this makes me angry on your behalf. You have been abused and I believe your perspective is the skewed perspective of an abused spouse in an abusive situation. You are losing your sense of self. Please regain your power, get yourself to safety and get a clear head.

Original Poster: Some Readers have stated rather bluntly that I’m an abused spouse. I appreciate this 3rd party perspective, why else bother posting if not to get an outsider perspective. This “abused spouse” is hard to reconcile with my self-image. I consider myself strong and forthright, I’m certainly not scared. So I don’t feel like I fit the mold of an abused spouse as far as my reaction. The reality of digging glass out of my arm is hard to ignore. Not to mention being called an abuser for questioning and yelling at her. A double standard for sure. I am taking a step back and really trying to consider whether or not I’m stuck in an abusive trap. Perhaps its pride. I don’t know, but I appreciate everyone’s input.

Reader Comment: You say you don’t feel abused. As you are likely the bigger, stronger individual in the relationship, you can likely physically handle your wayward wife. However, you won’t, because that is morally wrong. Your wayward wife knows this and uses it against you. Another sign of abuse.

Original Poster: This is certainly part of my current struggle. I accept she’s abusive, there is no denying the infidelity was abusive, the lies were abusive, yelling at me was abusive, gaslighting, and physical attacks are all, by definition, abuse. While its easy for her to hurt me emotionally, and she has chosen to say the most hurtful things she could when angry, her ability to hurt me physically is very limited. She’s swung as hard as she could and hit my arms and chest, the result was her own sprained wrists. And I would never strike back, despite yelling at her, my physical restraint is 100%.

I don’t know. Things are calm now. Despite an initially good foray into Reconciliation and counseling, I see the new pattern (which is really the old pattern, there was just a small anomaly). The pattern is clear, if we talk about anything Affair, she gets angry and asserts herself as the victim. I can sugar coat it, and there are other things mixed in – apologies, words from her accepting responsibility and asserting she has changed, etc., While those may be components of Reconciliation, they are not Reconciliation.

I’m not sure what I’m even doing now. I’m enjoying the peace and just living life. On the other hand, I’m harboring resentment and know that if I bring up my feelings about A, my struggles, she will escalate to violence against me. At a minimum, she will escalate to yelling at me and saying hurtful things. This wall of anger she has built is in the way of Reconciliation. I’m not sure I care to make another attempt at breaching the wall. I’m certainly not interested in more M or Reconciliation counseling.

Reader Comment: Is there more to the story?

Original Poster: Also asked if I’m in marriage counseling, no, exhausted and not sure it’s helpful for me. I really am not that interested in talk therapy right now.

Always more to story. wayward wife seemed to make a hard and real turn into good Reconciliation behavioral territory. It feels to me more like a trick, but those conversations still linger with me emotionally. Also, people are complex, so I’m starting to see she became both a terrible wife AND is an awful Reconciliation partner. Yet, I could list a dozen personal qualities. That’s the thing, people

can be both good and bad. More than anything I think what everyone is detecting is just my apathy and exhaustion. All the trauma, some hope being realized by my wayward wife’s seeming turn, then realization that I’m actually in a terrible cycle (abuse cycle seems to be the most fitting description). Its left me rather hollow, but also a bit at peace. I think it must be what people feel like when they surrender to drowning and stop fighting it. Not sure what’s next for me. I won’t rug sweep, but I also realize if I did want to talk about something she may be mean or violent. So, at the point I want to talk, I’ll need to decide something. Speak and let he react or just go on and accept/state we are going to Divorce. I can’t say now which will come out of my mouth.

I suppose I am also waiting to see if she approaches me with any sort of humility and true remorse. If she approaches me to talk. I expect not, I think she believes she has bullied, set boundaries (violently), and we can proceed just like before the Affairs. Which is what she has always claimed to want. Actually, not sure she is self-aware enough to see her own bullying. Anyhow, there is more, more going on with me emotionally, more going on with her and in our lives. But I think that’s the basics.

update: So, I hire an attorney, have them file for divorce, and I tell everyone in our circle that I am asking for a divorce. wayward wife initially accepts divorce as her wishes also, then a few days later does a hard reversal, suddenly wanting to do recommended Reconciliation work, taking all my suggestions, admitting to her short comings in Reconciliation, in communication, and in doing her part. I suddenly am in a position that the woman coming to me now is one I’d reconcile with, but I’m on the fence. I’ve seen so many stories about how a wayward is stuck, then the divorce process is started by the betrayed spouse, family/everyone told, and only then does wayward spouse behave like a truly repentant person that cares. I’m on the fence, paperwork is done, attorney paid; and attorney waiting on my go ahead. Then it begins, but now waffling.

Answering a few questions.

No, wayward wife is not physically violent anymore. She became fully repentant and accepted her behavior as despicable.

No, I did not get divorce paperwork prepared as a ploy. I am ready to end the marriage. I have a strong desire to end the marriage. I may yet call attorney and say go. Waffling.

Yea, it is disturbing that only after I want divorce does she care. It is not completely fair to say she did nothing, or never cared, or never accepted any responsibility. But this was mixed with a lack of empathy and playing the crying shame game when it came to doing the work. The work came to a halt because of her tactics to avoid the work, so I decided divorce. Now I’m in shock at this new corner she is supposedly turning and wondering about my main question. Are wayward stubborn and emotionally malformed humans who won’t do the work until they have consequences facing them?

Reader Comment: What does this mean, ‘fully repentant’?

Original Poster: On the above, it’s a bit difficult to explain, but I have training and I’m very muscular/large. Unless she caught me unaware with a weapon, it would be near impossible for her to hurt me. This gave her what she thought was leeway to be violent and let herself go. She took ownership and became consistently apologetic and has shown no signs of being willing to do that again. I do understand I may be downplaying the abusive behavior, I’m gentle, but violence doesn’t scare me.

I read plenty that said wayward don’t take accountability until they see consequences. But I’m wondering now if its real accountability or just more selfishness on her part and she’s realized the minimum she needs to do is higher than what she was doing.

Reader Comment: Stop nothing until she shows ongoing and consistent actions, regardless of your future. She either wants to change or she doesn’t. The M should not be the only reason.

Original Poster: This is what I’m leaning toward, it just makes sense and it’s the 1st I’ve felt on level footing and in control of my destiny. Oddly, one of wayward wife’s tactics was to claim I was controlling, and she had no power. A way of claiming victimhood, I always asked, name one example: she traveled as she pleased, she spent money as she pleased, she spent her time unaccountable as she pleased, she selected home, decor; and most mutual activities, and conversationally i was open to respectfully address any wants or needs. So, what control and lack of power? Silence, change of subject, anger, or tears, but never an example one.

Wayward are manipulative by nature.

Reader Comment: If you filed because you don’t want to be with your Wife, my counsel is: don’t get distracted.

Original Poster: Serial infidelity, STD, physical violence against me was not enough to make me not want to be with wayward wife and work on Reconciliation. A failure to empathize and do the work was enough to force me to see the truth. Then I move towards Divorce and want Divorce (I never threatened D) and suddenly wayward wife shows empathy and a willingness to do the work. That has left me confused. At the moment I’m doing all the Divorce actions, but my heart is suddenly torn.

I just don’t know. My head says to move on, enjoy the rest of my life. My heart says stay and see for a while longer. The thing I miss the most is trusting my partner. That is such a wonderful luxury, to trust and to be trusted. My wayward wife’s overall, long term defensiveness, tells me she’ll be unable to sustain the work to rebuild trust. I want to trust, but she should be on the lookout for opportunities to expand trust, it shouldn’t be my initiative. I’m not sure I want to invest the emotional labor. I’m exhausted. I’ve been taking a break from caring. Next week I interview a new Divorce attorney which came recommended and I think she’ll be good. Didn’t like my last Divorce attorney responses to some complex financial questions. This one is supposed to be clever, quick, and respected by other family practice attys. Other attys use her for their Ds. Its, sort of petty, but the new atty happens to be a bombshell. Is it terrible that I like the optics?

Update: Separated now for a week, wayward wife rented a place. Divorce attorney is selected and on retainer, but I haven’t pressed the start button. wayward wife still wants to reconcile, but anyone familiar with my story is aware of the deflection, minimizing, gas lighting, and physical abuse (her on me). While I can honestly say some progress was made in her empathy, her individual work, and in our communication, the post DD behaviors by her may be more than I want to forgive. Some say its not the affairs, but the post wayward actions (new lies, new gaslighting, etc.) that end the M. I think I may fall into this camp, with an ability to forgive multiple affairs, but to never be able to trust due to post DD cover up. So update for now is simply separated.

Reader Comment: But as soon as it is clear that they will not get their way, the mask slips again, and their true colors are revealed. Is this part of your hesitation in filing?

Original Poster: That’s a good read. Each step towards divorce and wayward wife has a miraculous new breakthrough. This leads me to believe her insights and empathy are contrived. But even if not contrived they are forced through self-preservation of a rather fine lifestyle I afforded her. It seems that empathy gained that way is not a freely given gift of love, but rather an act of “selfish “self-preservation. Are acts of empathy offered from self-preservation any different from the selfishness that led to her poor choice? Meaning she may have no real introspection or personal insights that I can trust.

Also, a long happy marriage for me. I really thought I had the best wife a man could ever desire. Yet here I am.

Reader Comment: Pay attention to how you feel in your body.

Original Poster: This has been relevant to me, thank you. When wayward wife is gone, I feel so much more relaxed, and I get more wholly into whatever I’m doing.

We’re not NC and the situation isn’t ideal as wayward wife pops in whenever it suits her, yet she has private living conditions. I’m thinking about what to say, as the pop-ins don’t really bother me or keep me from doing whatever I please, but it’s hardly fair and it’s the principle. Also, the vibe is reminiscent of her hotel/part time consult traveling. In the past I was at home with family and friends coming and going, while wayward wife had a private hotel to play. I don’t like the repeat of this pattern, I’m entitled to privacy.

Reader Comment: Good luck on your journey.

Original Poster: Thank you, that simple statement touches a nerve as I’ve come to see myself these last weeks as on a journey. I was home and happy, then my wayward wife committed an act of arson on our home. Accepting that I’m on that journey away from home, and not resisting it, has really helped me with growing daily peace.

Situation at home hasn’t changed much, but I’ve changed. She comes and goes as she pleases, but I grow ever more detached, I can’t remember the last time I asked her what she was doing, and even longer since I’ve asked why she is doing it. Here’s what I came to realize: wayward wife’s motives aren’t clear to herself, why should I be in pain trying to understand what she herself doesn’t care to understand (or correct)?

It comes down to seeing my wayward wife for what she is: selfish. I’ve known this for a long time, but accepting it is an entirely different matter. The separation is bringing some of the clarity many people speak about. I can’t remember the last time I had a positive thought about my wayward wife. Everything she says grates on my nerves. This must have something to do with accepting her for what she is and not the image I had constructed over the years.

This is not to say she isn’t on the surface behaving like a repentant wayward wife. But it seems cheap, too late, self-serving, and contrived.

So onward I journey, what’s next I’m not sure, but I sleep well, work hard, socialize, and I spend quality time with family. What’s missing from that list? wayward wife.

Even as the person posting this, I never felt pain was a competition. It comes down to empathy. What I routinely find is many betrayed spouse’s go out of their way to understand what a wayward spouse is going through.

In the original post, my wayward wife is the one who framed hurt as a competition. Rather than making an effort to empathize with my needs, she has routinely played the “one upping” of her needs and pain. This was an attempt to take advantage of my desire for Reconciliation and my desire to empathize with her. But this is what unrepentant wayward do: they take advantage, just as they did before. It’s a clear signal their way of thinking has not changed.

It’s really a rather disgusting tactic and may be a reason some betrayed just give up on their wayward. Sorry to turn it directly personal, Repentant wayward would be equally repulsed by the tactic.

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